COVEN. CALL. SIX.
JACQUI IS A MASTER AT SELF-REINVENTION, METAPHOR & LEADERSHIP, & LITERAL & FIGURATIVE CHANGE. WE TALK THE HERO'S JOURNEY, MANIFESTATION, CHANGING DREAMS, BEING IN THE DARK & THE TIGHTROPE OF WALKING FROM THE OLD LIFE TO THE NEW.
Jackie: Yes, oh my gosh, you freaked me out.
Sarah: I know it does. We got this. Okay, so lets close our eyes and get calm and still and become the vessels for the wisdom that wants to arise tonight and everybody, whatever you're doing, just maybe taking a minute to close your eyes, settle into your body. If you're sitting, settle into your hip bones. When we breathe, remember we're going to breathe up along the spine, out through the crown, opening that crown chakra where the divine wisdom comes in. We're going to breathe in through our nose and we're going to breathe out through our mouth. We're going to do this three times, like watching the ocean waves rise and fall. We're going to breathe in together, kind of syncs us up as sisters holding space for each other and the wisdom tonight.
Just gently inhale up, through the nose, up through the spine, out through the crown, out through the mouth. Inhale, up along your spine. Opening the crown, out through the mouth. And a deep inhale up along the spine, opening the crown, out through the mouth. Beautiful.
I've been transitioning from calling in the elements, which as soon as I say that, I say I'm not going to do it, and then I always feel called to do it, maybe call in the powers of the north and the earth, the grounding energy of mother earth, stabilizing us and holding us safely for this talk, feeling supported in this conversation that we're shifting the paradigm from masculine ego into feminine nurturing and balancing the energy of the masculine and the feminine within and without so within us and on the Earth itself for the Earth.
Then moving, calling in the east, the air, inspiration, breath, winds of change. May we be flexible and inspired with the winds that are blowing from the east.
The powers of the south, our desires and our passion for this work and, as we know, our flame. That's what we're going to talk about tonight. Those flames can wax and wane, but keeping that inner pilot light lit inside of us and the passion for this work and the passion for the Earth and each other.
Moving to the west, the water, the wombs of the Earth, the womb of the world, our tears, the saltwater of the ocean. May we be cleansed and healed and reborn in this work.
Moving into spirit self, the goddess within and the goddess without, our sisters, the great mother, we call her in for this work we do tonight.
Jackie, I was called to read a Joseph Campbell quote. I'm really back into the Hero's Journey, I never really left it. I think about where you are in your life and I love this quote by Campbell from Pathways to Bliss. He says, "What I think is that a good life is one hero's journey after another. Over and over again, you are called to the realm of adventure, you are called to new horizons. Each time, there is the same problem: do I dare?" I think of you as someone who says yes, who can have the courage to leave the old life behind and that's what Campbell talks about again and again is that the old skin must be shed before the new one can come so the snake actually has a time of complete vulnerability without a skin to say, "This is my pattern. This is how I look. This is how I call myself." She kind of slinks around, vulnerable, and slinks around without an identity and protection of the coat she wears and that's how she's identified.
That's sort of where you are at this point in your life.
Jackie: I'm a snake without a coat. That's such a perfect quote, too. I can't remember if I told you in our epic three hour long catch up the other week, but I'm in the midst of re-reading The Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler and obviously massively inspired by, very derivative of Joseph Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces, but really sort of guiding the writer through the process. You can't help but reflect back on all the ways that each thing shows up in your own life. That's pretty exquisite. You know what came through for me, actually, pause.
Let me just say, before I swear I feel like a dog that's about to be walked. My tail's just been wagging for the last four hours. I'm like, "I don't know where she's going to take us, but I'm in." Before I get ahead of myself, I just want to say a really massive thank you, Sarah, because I know how much this powerful pack of wolves in women's clothing, how much they mean to you and I know that there's sort of nothing more tender of vulnerable, speaking of a snake without a skin, than inviting someone in to be a part and so I'm just profoundly honored to be with you and you and you and you and everyone who's listening, what an awesome treat it is to be here.
Sarah: Thanks. We did sort of jump right ahead into the waves. I didn't get to really introduce you, so we could kind of start there, where people normally start, but you and I aren't really normal people. It's also wonderful talking to another teacher who understands sort of the preciousness of what this is and I've really gone completely vulnerable and we're going to talk about this human revolution that's coming out of the spiritual movement. Now I'm just holding space for what needs to come. I've prepared, but in the way that I offer when people ask me how I lead a moon circle. I say, "Prepare, but then allow space for whatever needs to show up because that's going to be far more important than anything you prepared."
Basically, this coven has really blown me away, the women that showed up for it so thank you for recognizing that. You and I have talked about that we prefer to teach in circle where every woman gets to speak and this is the first time around with the coven conversations and eventually I want to do them in person where one woman tells a story and then everyone gets to share. I love that every week is a different story and usually two stories a night of a woman who's healed herself or is on her heroine's journey. You are a woman who has.
In the old ways, the old paradigm, you had one role your whole life. You were a teacher, you were born, you went to school, you went to college, you got married, you were a teacher for 50 years, and then you retired. They said, "What'd you do?" You said, "I was a teacher." That's the old way that you could fit sort of in a box. The new way is that, just like you're everything in this skin. You're the universe walking around in skin and you're everything. You are one of those people that shows up in the world that way. You and I love to play with words, but I call you a Jackie of all trades. You told me you already used that and I was like, "Damn it." I thought I got to that one first.
The thing about witches is a lot of us really did win the literal spelling bee. It's kind of a fun double entendre of how much we love words and word play. Women who are aligned with their feminine get very romantic with words and creative with words. You and I definitely have that in common and a lot of women on this call, almost all of them do. I would say all of them. You've been a journalist, you've been a hoop dancer and not just a, you were very successful in these careers and well known for them, then you launched something with Shakti Sunfire. At the beginning, you guys did it together, called Mean Business.
You were a healer, you can help us whether you still do that at all. You were a very successful healer's business coach which is so needed because a lot of us healers have sort of a starving artist thing. "This comes from God. This is my divine gift, who am I to charge for it?" We have this weird shit around money, thinking it's greed and part of the problem. We also have work issues because so many of us are the wounded healer and coming from sort of these wounds of worth, et cetera. Not to put you in a nutshell, but that's as close as I can. You also have launched into a new life and you're sort of at the dream seed of a new life. You're sort of in the new moon phase of a new life. Is that a good place to start with you?
Jackie: Yeah, that's a great place to start and it actually kind of hand delivers me back to the relay [inaudible 00:10:52] just run with it at the start of the call. You said, somewhere in the depths of the Joseph Campbell quote, it was something along the lines of kind of comes down to those who say, "Do I dare? Yes I do." I feel like gratefully, I can say that that's always been me. I've always dared. I've taken the leaps and I can tell a great many stories about that, but I think what has been most achingly painful about the last six months or so of my life is that I'm just now kind of starting to peak around from the dark side of the moon and come into the return phase.
What was so painful is that I couldn't see where the edge of the cliff was. If someone could have pointed me in that direction, I would have ducked my head down and taken a flying leap over it, but I couldn't see in the fog. I had no idea where the edge was or what the next thing was and that's what was painful. It's like give me a challenge, I'll take it. Give me a cliff, I'll leap off it, but leave me in the dark with no sense of direction or what might lie beyond and that, to me, is torture. It has been. In the myriad incarnations of the Hero's Journey, again going back to that original quote that we play out again and again and again, in a way that would be Sisyphean if we didn't get evidence that every time we go through it, we are moving closer to something new and hopefully getting closer to our own authenticity.
Sarah: That's what we're trying to get to, isn't it?
Sarah: I used to think it was like a thing or like a place, but-
Jackie: I think it's okay, well, "Shit. I'm one incarnation closer to whoever it is that I really am." We're all just figuring it out day by day.
Sarah: For people who are wired to be a hero, and I think every woman on this call is because she's different, she doesn't stand out, good luck blending in. The beginning of the Hero's Journey, as you know you're reading Christopher Volger's book and anybody's who's studied it is you're in the wasteland and you're talking to everybody here going, "Something's wrong here. Everything's dying. Somebody needs to save us," and nobody else is answering the call. You're like, "Shit, that must mean I have to do it." You leave, what I call leaping off the shore of normal, and not knowing and we're wired to do that. For a hero that can't find an adventure, that's a hard place to be when we're wired for adventure and you weren't being presented with your next challenge.
Jackie: Yeah. Exactly. That's such a good way to put it. It becomes this deeply rooted existential crisis, right? It's like a very crisis of identity. I'm a heroine without a task. I'm a hero without a ... There's no call to refuse. It's like, "Come on, I'll play the game. I'll be coy. I'll do the thing." But it was just silent. What was interesting, in fact, is I kept sort of forcing myself on the sense of other people's trails and namely my fiance's trails. Finally ...
Sarah: We're going to get into that in a little bit.
Jackie: Yeah, it's pretty juicy. Finally, and thank God and not a moment too late, a voice came through and on the surface, it's the voice of one of my dearest mentors, but he's just a channel as we all are. The voice said, "You can't get there from here." It's something that he's said to me so many times. Any time we're in conversation and I'm really gunning for something, but it's coming from a place of scarcity or I'm coming from a place of anxiety or I'm coming from a place of fear. It doesn't matter how beautiful the vision is, he just gently cuts me off and he says, "Jackie, you can't get there from here."
Then I take a deep breath and I go back to the drawing board. I leave it. I leave it until I am in a place of presence. I leave until I'm in a higher vibration, a place that feels really good and true and excited and eager and generous and open and abundant, and then I start again. That voice had been missing for all those months that I was, as you so eloquently put it in that conversation together, I was on the dark side of the moon. I was in that part of the creative cycle that frankly we don't like to talk about very much which is, I've marveled about this before. We as a culture, as a people, as a society, whatever, we are really fond of beginnings and endings, but not so much the middle part, not so much everything that comes in between. The line kind of goes quiet and it's a really lonely place to be and it can feel very empty and can feel very much like the abyss.
I think it's really important that we come together in times like this to talk about just how okay it is to be in the middle and just how essential it is to be in the dark. We all know it. We get it cognitively, but it doesn't lessen the pain of it when we happen to be in that phase.
Sarah: Are you calling it the middle, but when we talked, just for our listeners, we're talking about the creative cycle, which is just like the cycle of the moon. Shakti loves to teach on this, too. It's like the Earth cycles as spring, summer, fall, winter, and new moon, full moon, waning moon ... or new moon, waxing moon, full moon, waning moon, and then the dark of the moon, when you've released something. You know something gestating inside of you, for all the women who have been blessed enough to be pregnant and offer a child to the world, but it's like something's gestating inside of you and that's very exciting. The getting pregnant part is exciting. You have a goal and you get pregnant and it's germinating and you get to nurture it and it's really thrilling like, "What's this going to be like?" Then you offer it and that's the postpartum, like you offer the baby to the world and then you're in between.
With my work, it's like I offer something. I had postpartum after I birthed the coven conversations and the time between when I announced them because it was so exciting to have that hard work, that challenge the hero needs, but also with DOITGIRl, I go through incarnations again and again which is why I wanted to read that quote. You have a golden thread as a teacher, that you continue to follow. You're a teacher, a disseminator of knowledge. You love words, but you teach through this beautiful wordplay and analogy and metaphor. For me, it's like that dark of the moon when our soul knows the moon's there, but as humans, we can't see the moon so we're like, "This is it. I'm over. I'll never be inspired or lit up again." The in between, like the in betweens of the snakeskin.
I was Jackie Becker. I could say I'm a famous hoop dancer. I could say I'm a well respected journalist. I could say I was the leader of Mean Business. Now it's like -
Jackie: What am I?
Sarah: not having that identity. Right. But that's ego. I always think about like when we find that we're needing to defend something, that means we could lose it. You can't lose who you are. Now you go to cocktail parties and you told me that people are like, "What do you do?" And you're like, "I'm Jackie."
Jackie: I'm just figuring it out, absolutely. I'm a brand new baby, really; brand-less, brand new. It's a total rebirth and it is interesting how uncomfortable that can make other people.
Sarah: That's interesting.
Jackie: They're not quite sure whether to be jealous of me or sorry for me. They're not quite sure how much to respect me because we have evolved to derive a lot of information from whatever response comes to that very simple question, that simple inquiry. "What do you do?" We're asking like we're searching. "Who are you? Are you better than me?" It's like ego meets ego in the space between the question and the response to it. It's like a gladiator arena. Then, when you don't have one because we all typically tend to have one, there's a really weird pause there.
Everything that I've been trained to do is designed not just have a response, but really thoughtfully design a response to that question that elicits engagement and that takes the conversation to the next level and not really open. You would think that there would be key responses that would be more likely to open up a next level conversation than, "I have no idea, I'm figuring it out," but in fact, for a lot of people, it's like a closer because it's a cloudy mirror. They don't quite know what to do with it. I've had to kind of become okay with the discomfort of that simple pause. Yeah. Trippy.
Sarah: The gladiator allusion is so brilliant because I immediately think of armor. You've said you were in a workshop recently and the only thing you wrote in the journal in journaling time is, "I don't think of myself." That's the ego that we get sick of. When I was having my ego desk this winter, and I couldn't even Skype with you because I was roaming the halls like [Matabosham 00:22:40] and I remember I was like eating stale wedding cake. I remember being, I kept hearing in my meditation, "Die to the I," and I thought that was so interesting that the part that's like, "I'm this. I'm that. I do this. I do that." I had a lover at the time who I lost because I remember I wanted to impress him so much with my resume. Which my resume isn't lying in bed with us. The person, the soul, like who am I without any of the armor, any of the resume. That's sexy. That's sexy.
Jackie: Yeah. It's the raw imperfection.
Jackie: So true.
Sarah: Yeah. And we're in this really fascinating place in this sort of spiritual celebrity world where we keep forgetting when the ego runs the show. I see it everywhere and it's something that I'm constantly trying to stay in alignment with. And this was a great way to do it was to not have another course where I just talked, and a course which feels really old paradigm to me too where I'm teaching instead of just in one to one equal conversations. You know what I mean?
Jackie: Yeah. Completely.
Sarah: I know.
Jackie: We hold people at arm's length when we teach. Right? And then because there's again, returning to this idea of space in between. It's like there's a giver and a receiver and those roles don't change within the course of the course, then there is distance. There is distance there. As opposed to just sitting amongst each other and sharing and learning it. And that's why it felt so important to me to have some time to open the line tonight because I'm in such a place where ... I'm mean, for maybe half a second flashed in my head like, this is months ago, "God, I might need to tell Sarah that this just isn't the right time."
Sarah: I thought that.
Jackie: It's like the back handed, "Dumb ass, this is the perfect time."
Jackie: We need this as much, and I think what is so hard for us as teachers is because we don't want to be fraudulent. We genuinely, earnestly don't want to be fraudulent.
Sarah: Terrified of that word.
Jackie: Terrified. It's sort of like the scariest ghost of them all is like, "Oh my God. What if I'm just a giant fraud?"
Sarah: Oh God.
Jackie: I remember it was on the eve of the last course that I taught, Sarah. I don't know if you know this, was called "Mastering the Money Thing," and I mean, I don't know, money's been a long journey for me. I've done a lot of work on it. As much as that phrase annoys me to no end, but I had. I had. For years and years and years, and I had layers of healing and all ... This is where I get to the point where I'm like, "I'm so sick of myself." You get in these cycles of wanting to fix yourself and, "Oh I had a breakthrough." And, "Fuck." And all of the breakthroughs and where are they leading? I was just like getting to this place though where I thought that I had truly broken through on the money thing, and I felt like I sort of hurdled these big walls that, to me, seemed indicative of progress in the money sphere. It's like through the program that within three weeks of just conceiving of the idea for Mean Business, we through all together, we created a program, we sold 10k in the first three weeks.
Jackie: And I was like, "Damn."
Sarah: Old Jackie could not have done that.
Jackie: That's for sure. And then I was like, well maybe it was a fluke. And you know, maybe it was Shakti. And then Shakti went back to sort of like her program.
Sarah: Yes, story of my life.
Jackie: Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, all right, okay, well maybe lightning in a bottle, right? And then it happened again and I was like, "Okay." And I started to really feel abundant and I started to feel like the powerful investor that I know that I am, and things started shifting, and what I could tell with my tribe was that money was the biggest block of them all, so we could talk about social media and we a station based marketing and we could talk about planning your day, whatever, productivity stuff, I don't care. But none of that mattered until my people kind of where able to experience similar shifts to the one that I had around money, and so I thought, "Ah, okay. There needs to be a money course." I called it "Mastering the Money Thing." And I called it that because I love words and I thought it was super cute. Right? It rhymes.
Sarah: You're like, look at all that alliteration, you guys.
Jackie: Alliteration. I mean, come on. There's something in that word "Mastering" that was making my left eye twitch, but I was it named itself, I can't change it now. Tell you what, that was the kiss of death I think. Because I couldn't be bothered to sell it. I couldn't be bothered to talk about it. I felt inauthentic and then the moment that I started to feel like a fraud. I was in a way. Without being intentionally, but the moment I started ... What is that typical story where it's like you're told, "Keep looking forward. Keep driving forward. Don't look back." And it's like I did and I turned into a pillar of salt, completely paralyzed in my own fear of my own fraudulent nature. And it happened. Right?
Sarah: Right. I'm chasing me and I can't turn around.
Jackie: Totally. And then I called my mom. And I'm like, "Mom, am I a fraud?" And she's like, "Sweetie, no." And I was like, "Okay. Mom said I'm not a fraud." And I called my mentor, and I was like, "Jake, am I fraud?" And he said, "Well I don't know. Is your goal to engage in fraudulent behavior?" And I said, "No." And he's like, "Congratulations. You're not a fraud." But I couldn't shake it.
Jackie: So the next thing I knew. I wasn't marketing. I wasn't selling. My income dried out, and I was like, "Okay. Great. I'm going into this course with less money than I've had in the last two years, maybe more." Feeling like I really shouldn't be doing this, wondering if I should be thinking ...
Sarah: The sheep are starting to come. They're backing me up. It's like my Greek chorus over here.
Jackie: So I thought about canceling it, and I thought about what are the ways I can refund the people that did pay. Surely I can make this right somehow. What's interesting is that ... and this will maybe lead us into, I know you wanted me to share a bit about my story with Kevin, my fiance, but the night that the course, in total poetry, the night that my course was supposed to begin was the night that our nights forever changed because it was the night that Kevin got to the top of the dawn wall on El Capitan. Yeah.
Sarah: Yeah. I'm going to take this little segway to go inside because the lambs are charging. Hold on just one second. I love that they all have different voices, so some are like, "baa," and they sound like they should sound, and then others are like, "baa," which just sounds bad like they're not even trying, like a bad impersonation of the sheep. Okay, so I'm inside. I'm settled, and now the cat's probably going to join in, but what can you do?
Jackie: So let me tell the story of Kevin. Kevin is my love and we met on an island, on a 17 square mile island. It'll be four years the day after Christmas. I showed up on the island with one boyfriend. I left with another. It's a complex tale, but something clearly shifted for me in that time, and it was just a massive adjustment and new perspective and in my own personal standards of what I wanted my life to be and my partnership to be. I was at this beautiful 5 star resort teaching hula hooping and Kevin was there teaching climbing and we were immediately dubbed hoops and rocks and it became this beautiful love affair. Four years is a long time. A lot happened. It wasn't all fairy dust. You know, ups and downs and time apart and a lot of hard questions and harder answers.
We moved to Sonoma County where Kevin is from. He was born and raised here, but we'd both been nomads and gypsies for so many years, just kind of following our dreams because we dared. When we finally decided it was time to settle and have our first actual place together. We found this little cottage in the Sonoma countryside. We moved in on August 1st of last year, and on August 16th, one of Kevin's brothers, one of his closest friends, going back to his teenage years, died from a rock climb fall in Yosemite Valley and it just completely rocked us, rocked our entire community and made us return to a lot of this centering, grounding, basic fucking questions of what matters. I don't think that it's a coincidence that it's two months later that I'm starting to announce this new money course and wondering like, "God, does this matter? Do I matter? Where am I going with this? What's the goal here? What's the point?"
Sarah: Well you wouldn't be on this call if you hadn't launched that. Because you taught me how to have online calls. This wouldn't be happening if you hadn't done that. Just so you know.
Jackie: I love that. Thank you. I love that.
Sarah: Sorry to interrupt you.
Jackie: It's so hard to see the ripple effect when you're the stone dropping in the pond. At the time, all you know is "I'm sinking. I'm sinking." You're no longer at the surface. Right? So you have no idea how the ripple effected. It's like the ripple effect is huge. Huge. because of you. I launched my witch school because of you. I mean it was like, yeah and now coven conversations, which is my favorite thing I've ever done is because you taught me how to do it. Yeah. So thank you.
Sarah: Thank you. Anyway, you lost an amazing man named Brad Parker who continues to send a ripple effect through his community, the passionate way that people have risen up to share experience and inspiration in a way that few people live, really few people live.
Jackie: Yeah, exactly. He was like the living, breathing textbook for a life lived right. And that's not to say that he was perfect, and certainly in the wake of his loss, it's like he's risen to sort of sainthood. It's like if anyone deserves it, this man did. It's just forced us all to take a giant time out and reevaluate and reassess a lot of what we had going on individually, and meanwhile, the coven ... So we lost Brad in August and early October, so pretty much just a month later, had to return to Yosemite to work on this rock climb of a lifetime.
Just to give a little bit of context, Kevin was born climbing, he was climbing before he was walking. When people are like, "What are you thinking? Why would you risk your life for this?" It's like, "It's not a choice." I mean, to witness this man climb, is to see Baryshnikov, it's to hear Yo-Yo Ma, it's to truly witness greatness, and brilliance, and the height of human potential in his field. I'm absolutely okay with the fact that I am not a climber, that I don't get it, but oh my God, to watch this man in action is just the most beauty. He's done one thing his whole life. That's not to say that he's incredible at a lot of other things, and that's not to say that he hasn't dabbled and succeeded in a lot of other things, but he has done this one thing with his whole heart his whole life.
There were low dose chaos to that, but he was experiencing along the way. I mean, he was sponsored by Adidas, so on the surface, it's like, "All right. They're on you. Nice work." But it's like you look at that and what that meant at the time was like, "Okay. It's ten thousand dollars a year." It's not a salary, it's like a stipend, and it's Adidas outdoor division. And it's Adidas outdoor division specifically for the West, and it ends up actually when you really look at it, it was pretty small, but the realm of opportunity seemed really really small. It's probably not going to come as a big surprise when I say, not generally a lot of money out there for rock climbers. Right? People think of it as a hobby, not a career.
He had been working on this project. They call these big rock climbs his project, for six years with his partner, who's an absolute climbing legend, and Kevin had gone way out of his comfort zone. He was used to climbing these maybe 50 foot high boulders. Really high for a boulder, but he called himself a pebble wrestler because he was still pretty close to the ground. He left that. He heard the call that this legendary climber had an idea to try and climb on the most blank stretch of El Capitan in Yosemite, which is just iconic hunk of rock. I mean, it's the biggest granite monolith on planet Earth. If you've ever visited Yosemite and stood in this meadow in the light or in the shadow and cast your gaze upward. It's just the most humbling experience, and you feel so small.
And Tommy had his own hero's journey well in progress. He'd been kidnapped by terrorists in Kyrgyzstan and held hostage for a week and had to push his captor off a cliff, that he and his girlfriend and his climbing partners could survive. He'd already lived through this cataclysmic adventure in his life. And after that, he went on to marry that girlfriend, and she left him not very long after that. That was the second death that he was reborn from, and he decided in the wake of that trauma, I'm either going to try and climb El Capitan without a rope, which was certain death, or the next best thing which was a caution to a rope but I'm going to do something impossible enough to just take my mind off this.
Because he never necessarily thought that it was totally doable, he just needed something that hard. And Kevin was inspired by the sheer audacity of the thing, and he said, "I've never done anything like this. It would literally be like a speed skater in the Olympics trying out for a figure skating competition." The disciplines are that different, but he said, "It sounds like you need a partner." So six years, he signed on for this thing, and it was just this unbelievable lesson in futility of year after year after year, they returned to this valley, not in an effort to conquer anything. They hate that phrase. It's not about conquering, it's about a wall. It's not man versus nature. It's just about, in fact, how close to harmony can you achieve with this beautiful representation of the natural world. Bit by bit they made progress. But still no one thought they could do it, and no one paid attention. It was just two crazy kids on the side of a wall, and then something happened.
Kevin actually thought he wouldn't go back this past year because we just lost Brad in that same valley to a fall. The year before he'd lost me when he was about to go back on that wall, and I just couldn't take losing him again for another chunk of time, and there were already some fractures and it was enough to break us apart. So he was holding a lot of pain and a lot of trauma around the idea of returning to Yosemite. It can get really claustrophobic in that valley surrounded by these granite giants and he reached out to Tommy and he said, "I'm happy to support, but maybe that's all I do."
I went with him. That was sort of the start of it, actually, now that I think ... the start of my support role. I left our home and somewhat reliable internet, and I went to Yosemite Valley, where you can't connect to the internet to save your life, unless you happen to ironically be hanging off from the side of this cliff where they were, but that wasn't an option for me, so I was in the house that Adidas had rented for him, and no way to connect, so all I could do was phone calls. No way to grow because my business was entirely internet based, and so that was when I launched the money course, I remember, from this rental house. And everything just kind of stalled out. It's funny, I'm only just making this connection right now. But I knew that it was important that Kevin could come off the wall every night and know that I was there.
They put in a full season, and they decided, "Okay. We think we made enough progress to try for a push," which means an actual attempt to start at the ground. If you imagine three Empire State Buildings, one stacked on top of the other on top of the other and then add a little bit more, that's what you've got in this cliff. They were going to start from the ground, and they were going to climb with their fingers and their toes, all the way up to the top. Knowing that it was going to take probably a couple of weeks, they had tents that they had already bolted to the side of the cliff. That was their home base, and they had some fixed ropes where they could haul food up, and they had some teammates who were bringing them water and provisions and things. They thought, "Okay, so we're going to do this."
On the day after Christmas, we celebrated our third year anniversary, and he was up at 5 am the next morning, drove to Yosemite, and by 3 o'clock that afternoon, they were starting that push. But we had no idea the time would change our life. Now Kevin had been working this whole time because he was working on this project in Yosemite, so the income that he generally collects from leading climbing clinics and coaching and other things, that was drying up. My income was drying up. But we knew that this was important. We didn't know if they were going to complete it successfully. In fact, the odds were massively stacked against them. It could've taken several more years for all we knew. Kevin certainly wasn't close, but they started that first day and climbed really beautifully, and then the next day they climbed even better, and then the next day something started to happen where there was this energy building. It was like in those first few days, I became a believer.
Something came over me where I can't tell you where the idea came from. It just was presented to me and it couldn't have been clearer, that at that moment nothing else matter but this climb. Everything that I had been building with Mean Business for over a year at that point, everything that I'd been trying to make happen with this program that I was afraid to market or present to people because I didn't feel like an actual master of money. I felt like such a fraud that I wanted to bury myself in a hole. But I put it all on hold because in this way, I knew that Kevin needed me to send all of my focus and all of my energy to him on this wall.
I did the bare minimum in terms of working with my clients. I did maybe a couple webinars to sell the program, but besides that, all I could do was keep my vibration high. I became a student of manifestation in a way that I never even thought to attempt in the past. For 19 straight days, nothing mattered besides my own happiness. That was interesting. Right? Because I knew that for my energy to be high for him, it had to come from my own joy. I started asking myself questions of like, "Well, what do I love doing?" Well I love dancing, so I danced a lot. I thought, well I love drawing, but I hadn't drawn anything in fifteen years. I found an old roll of brown paper that we'd put on the floors to protect them when we painted out on the back porch, and I pulled it in and I rolled it out and I found a mechanical pencil and a marker, like an old Sharpie that barely had ink left, and I started drawing. I love singing when I was little, but was told that I was really crap at it, so I gave it up at a young age. I started You Tubing singing tutorials and how to belt. The cat is lucky she's deaf. I just let it rip.
I just starting piecing these things together. I was on this Esther Hicks binge and I felt like a pressure cooker of just joyful positive energy. And all I imagined for 19 straight days was me greeting my man at the top of this three thousand foot cliff. I had no idea how I was going to get up there to meet him, but that energy, I couldn't shake it. I wouldn't shake it for anything in the world. I held onto it like a life raft. Something happened in that time. On day 5, a reporter from the New York Times learned from his editor that this climb was happening and that it is a big deal, that if they completed it, it would be the most difficult rock climb ever successfully completed on the planet.
So this Pulitzer Prize winning writer, John Branch said, "Okay. Cool. Yeah. I'll cover it." So he reached out. I will never forget the screenshot of Kevin's phone that he texted me and all it said was ... It was a little Twitter notification. It said, "NYT, New York Times, Sport is now following you." And I saw in a flash, in this brilliant vision, everything that transpired from that point forward, I knew it. And a moment later, the message came through, "Hey, this is John Branch from the New York Times. Would it be cool if I interviewed you? I know you're on the side of a cliff, but we're really into this."
He interviewed them that morning and unbeknownst to him, about an hour earlier, Kevin called me, and I could hear the stress in his voice, and he said ... it was January 2nd ... and he said, "Hey, babe. I don't have the money for the rent this month." And I could just like hear in his voice how beaten he felt. He just checked his account, and I said, "Okay. No problem. I don't have a lot, but I have enough." I said, "Do you have anything? Just so I know." And he said, "I have $164."
Sarah: The irony is killing me.
Jackie: Yeah. And I realized, this can't be the thing that we're talking about. You know? Right now, we can talk about anything else, but this can't be the thing. For Kevin, my man, to come to me and say, "I can't provide. I can't even provide my share." I knew that later that afternoon, once the sun dipped behind the cliff on the other side of the valley, and El Capitan actually went into the shade and became cool enough for them to be able to climb, I knew that Kevin was going to be attempting the hardest climb of his life. That one particular stretch was the hardest out of all of the hard parts. And I kept thinking, we can't talk about this right now. I said, "Just don't worry about it. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. I got us for this moment. We'll figure out the next. But please just focus." So he hung up with me. He does the New York Times article and a couple hours later, in the coolness of the shade, he attempts that first stretch.
To give some kind of context, the holds are about as big as the thinness of a credit card, but they're sharp as razor blades. If you imagine that your fingers are pulling down on those blades with all of your weight and that somewhere below you, there's an even smaller hold for your toe, but you've got to find it blind. He's just running his toe up and down and right and left, trying to find that one little blip, that little anomaly on this glacier polished granite to hold him. He's stretched out, arms as wide as they can get. The side of his face comes smooshed against the rock, and he's just trying to find that next hold. He reaches, and he slices his finger open on the rock and he falls.
A couple hours later, the very first New York Times dawn wall story goes live on the internet and it instantly becomes a global, viral hit. Most shared, most emailed, most comments. That was a Saturday night and editors told Kevin later, they were all looking at each other like, "Well, we lead with this." And it became front page news on the Sunday New York Times the following morning. Next thing Kevin knows, he's not only in the climb of his life and on the hardest part of the whole thing, but now his inbox is filled with requests. Anderson Cooper wants to do an interview live. Good Morning America wants to do an interview live. Today Show wants to do an interview ... Like literally, BBC live, NPR, all of them, from around the world. They held an emergency meeting, Kevin and his partner Tommy, and they said, "We've got to put a cap on this. We can't be there. Our head space can't be there." They did NPR just because they like NPR, and then they said, "That's it. We got to put a pause on the rest." And it didn't keep them from covering it.
So meanwhile, I'm at home in our little tiny country cottage. I didn't even have a car out here yet because I'd just come from New York City. I'm going slowly insane by myself, but trying to keep my energy up, and I'm laughing and I'm singing and I'm dancing and stuff like listening to comedy and I'm drawing and I'm neglecting my business and thinking I'm insane and wondering what the hell is going to go on and freaked out about money, but no, no, no, no. I can't be freaked out about money right now. I've got to focus on the goodness. Got to keep the objective in mind and I have to hold onto that image of me greeting Kevin at the top.
Days go by and Kevin tries again and his fingers break open again, and he tries again and it happens again, and he tries to heal and he takes a couple days off and he goes back and splits his fingers and he heals and he splits his fingers. It's like this sick Sisyphean effort just again and again, and suddenly now all the stories printing out on global media are "One of them is in trouble," "One of them might not make it." And that's my man, and meanwhile his partner Tommy is climbing higher and higher, to the point where now he's just two days from the top. It's a relatively easy climbing. He's got it in the bag. But I don't know if Kevin does. I don't know if Kevin has any hope of getting there. We didn't know if Tommy was going to wait. We didn't know if he was going to grasp the thing that he'd clung to for seven years. Who could blame him? I mean, everything was up in the air.
Meanwhile, this damn money course I was like "No." I'm like broke as shit and I'm supposed to be leading a money course? I mean, I stopped selling it altogether. It was a bit of a nightmare, truth be told. But again, it's like I couldn't dwell on that because there was something that was more important that was calling. My energy needed to be somewhere else. It needed to be at a higher level.
Finally, the day came where it's the one cloudy day which meant that, out of the entire 19 day saga, and that meant that the wall was cool all day long. It meant that Kevin could climb in the daylight as opposed to with a headlamp. This beautiful wind was blowing. What's interesting is this wall sets off different weather patterns altogether. Things that you and I on the ground would never know, so the wind on the side of that wall that doesn't blow from the side and it doesn't blow down from the top, it blows straight up the wall.
Kevin was able from his ledge to put his fingers out into this breeze and just collect the coolness of it and just dry his pants and increase that extra little bit of friction because at this point, it's a percentage game. He stepped off the ledge, and the first time he fell, he tried again and he got right back to that point where his chest and his cheek are up against the wall and he's clinging, but his toe finds the hold. He sees blood seep through the bandages from his finger onto the rock and he held it and he reached across and he clipped into his bolt and he let out a scream that woke up the entire valley.
And with that, everything changed. He was carried up the wall by Brad, by every angel, every army, every prayer that was now headed his way from around the globe. This collective consciousness joined in this effort and that day that my vision that I held from the start, of me greeting my man at the top, was the same night, almost to the moment in fact, that I was supposed to start "Mastering the Money Thing." I had to write the most kind of bummer of an email and said, "Hey, it's not going to happen. I got to go see my man make history."
And meanwhile, I had my own Dawn Wall to climb because I had to figure out how the hell I, this kind of scared of heights anomaly in this climbing world, was going to get my butt three thousand feet up off the ground. I had to ... the trails weren't an option. The shortest one was like nine hours long, and Kevin couldn't ... I couldn't ask him to do that with me after completing this monolith of a climb.
The only option was, I had to learn how to aid climb and get hitched into a harness, and at 3 am that morning, in the dark, headlamps. It's called jumaring. I was aid climbing up 500 vertical feet, then did another 2500 of this kind of spider man on my belly, scrambling up these super steep granite slabs and I'll be damned, but I was there to see my man come up over the side. It was everything I had held in that vision for 19 straight days. I wasn't the only one. There were news crews from around the world who had paid off dirty climber kids in the valley to hike their gear up. Somehow they made it too and a lot of them ended up having to sleep on the top of the cliff overnight.
It became a global story, and as we hiked down, arm in arm, someone yelled, "The President just tweeted you." He tried to call, but we didn't have the reception for it. There's a tweet of Obama's, but of him grinning and pointing to a painting in the White House of El Capitan, saying, "Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgeson, you reminded us of what's possible." He tried to call two more times the next day. We napped through it. We're like [inaudible 00:59:03] these texts, and it was all so surreal that we're like, "Ha ha, that's hilarious," and went back to sleep.
They did every morning show. We were up at 3 in the morning to do all this east coast live press, and the requests kept coming and suddenly it was like, he's choosing which of the top agencies in the world to sign with and booking deals. Now he, Sarah, I don't even know if I told you this, but he gets as much as $50,000 per speaking appearance.
Sarah: When he was on that wall, he had a hundred and sixty bucks.
Jackie: He has $164. Yeah.
Sarah: How has your life changed? In every single way?
Jackie: Not every single way, and I'm so gratified to say that. Kevin and I are strong as we've ever been, stronger even. We got engaged in the wake of the madness. We didn't have the money to get engaged. Kevin, as a man, couldn't even conceive of building a future with me because he couldn't conceive of building. It was like he didn't have the tools to do it, and so everything was kind of stagnant leading up to that moment. So it's been like Duracell and national campaigns and he's on TV all the time. There was a feature film with one of the top producers in the industry that wants to create it and TV shows and he's on these amazing stages.
Here's the kicker, right after this all happened, and the reason why I went so far down the rabbit hole, and I just want to say, thank you for your patience in listening to that, and that I hope it didn't raise too many questions of like, "Why is she telling us all of this? What does this have to do with where we are and like [inaudible 01:01:24] all that?" But it just feels really important to share that background, so I can get to this next phase which, to me, has been an astounding lesson. Kevin deserves all of this. I could've exploded. I was so proud of him, and am so proud of him. He is a magnificent man. It's like, finally. Finally, someone is getting attention and opportunity, and yes, wealth, who really deserves it.
And it just felt so good, and honestly in those months that immediately followed the completion of the climb, I didn't give a shit about anything else. I didn't care about my business. I didn't care about any of my passions or professions. I remember thinking so clearly, I just want to get sucked into his orbit. Those were the words that came to me. I don't care about anything else, I just want to get sucked into his orbit.
Being a New Yorker for so many years, I'd gotten in the habit of sleeping with ear plugs. I got those really bad ass silicone ones where all you can hear is the sound of your own heart beating. It's amazing. And I stopped sleeping with them just because I needed to hear his breath. I needed to know he was there even when I was sleeping. After losing Brad to a fall, directly across the valley on a of rock that we could see from the top of El Cap.
Having this man back and in one piece. I didn't even give a shit that all these opportunities were coming. Just the fact that he was safe was enough to melt into, and then suddenly he was showing up as like a man. I mean, he's always been my man, but he was showing up as a man. There was this shift. Suddenly, he was so fully in his power. Every bit as loving as he'd ever been, but I was like, "Oh my God. I had no idea how generous my man was." Because he'd never had the means to show it. But I didn't know how fully committed he could be because he never had the means to feel safe in committing and growing a future.
Sarah: Would you say you've witnessed someone at the opposite end of the hero's journey when they return having battled and fought?
Jackie: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Sarah: Not just in ... What was so amazing to me was, Kevin, he didn't just do that for himself. He did that for everybody that needed to believe in the impossible. That needed to believe that they were capable of something. You know, my dad does not think I'm cool. I'm a professional witch and that is not okay with him. And I remember calling him the day Kevin was on the [crosstalk 01:04:31]. I was like, "Dad, I'm friends with his girlfriend." Dad actually gave me like five minutes on the phone that morning. He's like, "He's the nation's hero." That's what my dad calls him. And that's what a hero does is show that something's possible, that our dreams are possible, and that's why I loved your ... The story about Tommy, Kevin's partner, we haven't really said his name much, but he'd already died a couple times in this life, which makes you fearless. It sounds like he was in this pit of despair, and my favorite movie, dedicated to Joseph Campbell, is called Joe Vs. the Volcano. When we're so desolate in this wasteland that the world has become, and we need a hero. God, what if we could be the hero? When you're sort of faced with ending your life, which it sounds like Tommy was pretty fucking desperate, or doing that thing that terrifies you. Instead of killing yourself, why don't you do the thing that terrifies you most in the world. And that's what Tommy did. And he didn't just do it for himself. Killing yourself, you're just going to hurt everybody around you, and you're going to show that's an option, but what if you do the thing that terrifies you to death, and that's how you really live.
Jackie: That's exactly it. So beautifully articulated. Thank you. You just crystallized that. That's exactly it. Why not? Hell, if you have the choice, and both are terrifying, why not go for the one that at least has a flip side of immeasurable beauty.
Sarah: And the chance of you becoming a true hero.
Jackie: Absolutely. So that's why Kevin twitches every time someone claims that they conquered El Capitan or conquered the Dawn Wall. He's like, "No. You're not getting it. We didn't conquer anything. We simply achieved the dream. This wasn't about us versus anything. It was about us becoming more. Us becoming greater than."
It's like the child like wonder of that word. The dream. What is it to be a dreamer? What is it to have a dream? What if a grown man dedicated his entire life to such a sweet little concept of a dream? What's on the other side of that? The fact that it paid off so richly in so many ways. It was an absolute marvel to witness. It was phenomenal to just be a bystander, I mean, an inner circle one, but a bystander and be able to observe all that was unfolded and the way that it was inspiring people around the world.
One of the stories that these boys now tell from stage, regularly, is ... So two mornings after they got to the top, they had just a couple more telephone interviews to conduct together, so they stayed in Yosemite for that. The only place where you could get any kind of cell signal was in the Lodge at the Yosemite Lodge. I sat on the sofa and the guys are kind of pacing back and forth with their heads tucked into their phones, and kind of nodding along in sync, and Kevin would take turns with Tommy responding to ... and meanwhile, in my peripheral vision, I noticed an older couple and the woman has a walker and they're sort of encroaching, little by little, into this sphere of space, and the guys are deep in the interview and they're a bit oblivious.
I'm sort of watching them, and I can see that there's recognition there. They move in to a little table near them and they both take a seat and they just waited. When the interview was over and the guys got off the phone, they both stood and the woman approached. You could tell, she was kind of conflicted that she didn't want to bother them, but that she had something to say. She said, "I just found out that if I don't do something I'm going to be back in a wheelchair for good." She had MS and her doctor had just pretty much laid it down for her. She said, "Watching you reach the top of the wall, I realized that this is my Dawn Wall. I'm going to fight it with everything I have." And we were all in tears, like I'm in tears now.
We kept getting evidence of this, of the profundity, that how deep the inspiration went for people. We'd done a lot of thinking about why. What's the algorithm to this? How could this possibly break into [inaudible 01:10:06]. It's like there was so many component parts that had been named something less, inspiring them the Dawn Wall.
Sarah: Right. Like after the darkest night comes the dawn.
Jackie: I know. Honestly, right. If Kevin hadn't struggled for 8 days with the world watching. All of these pieces fell into such perfect configuration to allow ... Well, listen to this. Thirty-four billion media impressions came out of that story globally. It's one of the biggest sports stories in history. That many people got to experience a taste of the impossible and got to make a choice. You got to make the choice again and again and again. Right? It's not like we just make a choice once, and then okay, I made my choice.
Because the hero's journey plays out again and again. You don't just get one hero's journey in a lifetime. So we're constantly facing these calls and we're constantly making decisions. How incredible that for all the people that were in that moment, so profoundly inspired and surely facing their own calls, thought that nudge and that evidence of what can happen when we answer it.
Sarah: And Campbell talks about answering it again and again and again. Saying yes, despite not knowing, again and again. Back to what they did for the world. In a world of so much bad news, Jackie, every fucking day. Here's some more bad fucking news. They gave us a story of hope and triumph. I know a ton of people that are struggling so hard in their personal lives right now, and they have their eye on whether it's a soul mate or a child or whatever it is. Sometimes the struggle, when it pays off, we look back and like, "Every second of that struggle made me not take this a second for granted, and made this that much more beautiful." And that story helps blueprint that for people. He had to fight this hard. He almost died too. It's really beautiful. If it'd been easy, what the fuck would ... and that's this whole thing about life. Life isn't supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be an adventure. And if that had been easy, what the fuck would the point of that been? You know? Who cares?
Jackie: Well, here's the ironic thing, is that, you would've thought that I ... because I'm examining the whole thing, I'm dissecting the whole thing, like I'm in tenth grade science class, just breaking it apart, checking out the anatomy of it. What are the depths of how this happened? I'm fascinated by it all. And I'm kind of rising up to apply my gift to help Kevin now in this totally new world. This is fully a new world. My story-telling skills are at his disposal for crafting his tale for stage and for screen, and in terms of the marketing for the thing. Coming up with this idea of asking people, "What's your Dawn Wall?" And it became a Washington Post column, and it became this battle cry, "What's your Dawn Wall?" And it became a major talking point on stage and a potential reality show and on and on.
I was very much a part of this engine moving our shared needle forward, but here's what happened. Do we have time for this? Can I talk about this for a few minutes?
Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.
Jackie: So what happened was, you would think that I would've learned the lesson of the whole thing, which is that you've got to do the work, but at the same time, I also believe in feminine flow and I also believe in following the free energy. The universe opens up these worm holes for us. It's like, "Okay. You can struggle real hard over here or you can turn your head and look where the river's just flowing." Because that's nature. Nature will always take that path of least resistance. We're meant to do the same. In a lot of ways, we're meant to follow the flow.
Sarah: Can I interrupt for a second? Jack?
Sarah: Because that just leads me back to something I wanted to ask you because I love where this is flowing, but I ... At the time of Kevin on the Dawn Wall, and you are about to do the master course, which you know how you had that soul itch or that eye twitch about. As a powerful woman, you're a visionary, and you couldn't really see it. We talk about this a lot on these coven calls, when we can't see something, we're like, "Uh oh." You know? And most men see it [crosstalk 01:15:39]. That slowly did not ... That became a path of a great ton of resistance to do that course. You had to go to a place without internet. Your soul was no longer on fire, which is a huge red flag.
All the energy to manifest what happened, needed to go to Kevin, which would take care of the abundance and then become a story that would become so much more inspiring than any telecourse you could do. You know? The gift [inaudible 01:16:14] that you gave, without the energy that you put in to Kevin, and then the world put in. Now we have a story of triumph that will inspire for endless lifetimes to come. So the world knew it needed to direct you differently. And I just love to hear about you letting go. Letting go of something that was ostensibly something you could've clung to because it did okay and you made just enough money. And that's what I wanted to make sure we talked about in this call.
Jackie: Thank you.
Sarah: It's easy to stay in what gets you by. You know, does okay. And your ego ... it sure is good for your ego to have hundreds of girls on Facebook telling you you're amazing, or whatever it is.
Jackie: Oh I loved that. Yeah. Yeah. Who doesn't?
Jackie: No, completely. And what was so interesting and surreal ... So you know, I had to postpone the program by one week. Right? Totally surreal. The very next week, hop on the call with my little head spinning. And I was like, "Hey, I'm on the call from L.A. Kevin just did the Ellen Show." And then the next call after that, I was like, "Hey, what's up? I'm overlooking the whale migration on the patio of my own private cottage at the Post Ranch Inn in Big Sur." With a bottle of champagne that was in our room waiting for us, and a plate of chocolates, and I was like, "What is ..." And then the next week, I'm like, "Hello from a 5 star resort in Palm Springs." And the next week it was like ... It was so trippy. Part of me was like, "I'm going to go about this somewhat delicately. Because now it just feels like a caricature." Now it just feels like I'm just showing off.
Jackie: But I was like, but this isn't me. This is clearly spirit delivering, and basically all I could say was like, "Let me tell you what just happened." And it's not going to be pretty and my hands are shaking because I feel like you might ask for your money back. I don't know, and that's okay. At least I have it for you to give to you now, but listen. This is where I was. This is where I have been over the last couple of months, and this is what transpired. I can't claim to be a master of anything that is happening right now, but all I can tell you is that I will be as transparent as possible right now and just fill you in on everything that I know to be true about what is going on.
It ended up being a really interesting and really raw and really, at the same time, kind of light and fun course. We just worked through it, week to week, and meanwhile, what was interesting was that, personally what was going on for me is knowing that the fire was out, I think that I had long subscribed to ... as much as I like metaphors, I also really like Venn diagrams, like a very clean, visual way to organize my brain.
I think somewhere along the line, I had developed a Venn diagram of what it is to find your purpose. I thought that it lived at the center of three circles containing, I happen to be good at it, I happen to like it, and I happen to be paid for it. I thought that was the trifecta, that was the magic equation. Oh my God, that must be my mission. What I realized in the course of Mean Business, was like oh crap, there's actually quite a few things that fill those circles and I've kind of pushed all my chips into this one and it just wasn't enough and it was so beautiful and it served such a purpose, but something was still really missing. And here's the kicker of it, the thing that was missing was like authentic expression of who am I and what I've always wanted to do, and ever since I was a little girl, always imagined myself doing were all of the things that were now being offered on a sterling silver platter to Kevin.
Sarah: Which are what? Being a star?
Jackie: The book. Being a star. The book deal, the movies, the speaking engagements, the TV shows, the magazine articles, all of it.
Jackie: It was really hard for me to ever admit that because it feels so God damned cliched. I talked to you a little bit about this, but while Kevin was in his season preparing for this massive push, I was meanwhile doing a lot of work with my mentor on the concept of archetypes. There was an interesting diagnostic called Wealth Dynamics. It works with the archetypes, not just to help you understand a little better of who you are. It certainly goes there pretty deep, but what I think is really interesting is that it specifically helps you understand which archetype, within yourself, of the many, you must most fully embody if you are manifest wealth in this lifetime.
Sarah: Cherie just talked about that last week on our call, is that you have to find your original medicine, the strongest medicine you're here to share. When you really siphon it down to your true medicine, the true message you're here, that's when you'll be in your power.
Sarah: In your purpose.
Jackie: Right. And it's like, what's your best delivery method? What is it? For Kevin, he's a mechanic. He's a perfectionist. That's how he could break down 3,000 feet of granite into millimeters. And it's the perfection of the thing, and it's the focus of the thing, and he's got a strong secondary creator archetype, which is how he's able to create programs, and he's a powerful writer himself. He's got a [inaudible 01:23:20] to be able to not go insane in all that's happening, and to be able to handle the attention with grace and poise. Meanwhile, my purest archetype always has been that of the star, with strong secondary creator energy and supporter energy, and that is where I've lived my entire life, in a mix, in this like beautiful hybrid of creator and supporter. So creator, that's how I can create these programs and that's how I can be such a creative spirit, and I can create things of value to put into the marketplace, and then the supporter energy. That's why I love coaching, that's why I love being a guide.
Sarah: You're so good at it.
Jackie: Oh thank you. I love it, and I love it, but it's not my key energy. It's still secondary.
Sarah: How do you find this out because it's so interesting, for people that are listening, so they can learn something?
Jackie: Yeah. So just do a little Google research on Wealth Dynamics, and there's a diagnostic, and there's a little fee. It's under a hundred bucks, but there's a fee to take the diagnostic and then it gives you a bunch of information on what the heck the results mean. It plots it out on this chart for you, so you can sort it. And just as powerful as knowing what you are, is knowing what you aren't because it helps you understand where you need to pull in support. And it helps you understand how your relationships function because Kevin and I understand each other a lot better now that I'm like ... He's like, "Oh, there's my star." You know? He knows what I need. And I'm like, my mechanic needs something very different from me, and I think what happened was ...
Here's the thing, our culture glorifies the star. Now I would say because everyone is like start-up crazy, we glorify the creator, too. Like entrepreneurs are the new rock stars, but still it's like we glorify the star above all else, which is really fucked up because all of the others are just as important. The desperation in people who want to be stars for the validation, but for whom that isn't the most authentic expression, and that's why it's like ... What is that amazing David Lynch song, it's like Mullholland drive or something, where you've got these desperate celebrity stars, these empty beings, just clawing their way towards fame. It's so icky.
My mom was an actress, and I never wanted to shine brighter than her and she abandoned her Hollywood dream to have a family. There was a lot of stuff there, so deep down there was always this whisper of, "It'll happen." But I didn't want to put myself out there and I didn't want to take that scary leap of claiming it, and saying, "This is mine. This is who I am, and this is what I want, and what I desire." Also it was really confusing because star, I think, gets most tangled with ego, of all the archetypes. Certainly ego plays out in all of them, but I think it's really hard to extricate one from the other, so that was really bizarre to me. To tell you the truth, I still don't really have all the answers to this for sure, but ... I'm doing the work, I'm standing up and saying, "Okay. I'm going to claim my star power." This was November, December, and in January, Kevin gets to the top of the Dawn Wall.
I literally felt like, wow my man is getting every opportunity I ever wanted. Part of me at first thought, "Okay. This is how it's going to happen. It's perfect. I don't have to put myself out there after all. It's how I always imagined it would go. I'm going to be discovered." I'm in these meetings at C.A.A. in this giant building in Century City, Los Angeles, that in the industry is called the Death Star, and we're like in meeting rooms with these ultra deal makers of the universe, and I just keep thinking, well it's just a matter of time. I'm in all the meetings next to my man, and then I remember thinking, "Oh, well I know why they're not taking me seriously, it's because I'm just his girlfriend, but when we get engaged, that's all going to change."
Literally these stories are going through my mind. I got the ring, and I'm super happy about it, and nothing changes. Of course, right?
Sarah: Been there.
Jackie: It almost kind of drops me even deeper. Yeah, I know you've been there.
Sarah: The ring changes absolutely nothing. Witch cackle. Sorry.
Jackie: It's like I could've sworn that this was really the turning point, and the thing is ... It was funny because the messages kept coming clearer and clearer and harsher and harsher, where at first they were kind of subtle, and then it got to the point where literally ... for example, Kevin's the grand marshall of a NASCAR race, of all things. We never even watched a NASCAR race. Now Kevin's the guy the saying, "Gentlemen, start your engines," on national television on Fox, and there's this wall of cameras that are lining up because it's live television and they're trying to time it all up and get it just right. The producer's standing by and she's like, "Hi, I'm sorry. Who are you please?" And I'm like, "Oh, I'm Kevin's fiance." And she's like, "Great. You can come stand with me." ] It's like this very little like, "I'm sorry, you're in his light. Could you move three feet to the left?"
Sarah: This is so fascinating for me because I have star archetype. I mean, see how I just interrupted you.
Jackie: I love you.
Sarah: I was side stage or backstage to a rock star for five years and I didn't know anything about this, and I died back there. I was basically trying to with the Valium and red wine I was downing. I didn't know that I needed my own fucking spotlight, that I had something to share, too, and actually was created to do so. Created. but we're also talking about a contract that we made that we're here to share.
Sarah: Anyway, just had to intervene with that.
Jackie: It's perfectly, perfectly aligned. It seems like Kevin was being offered reality shows that just weren't a fit. And I was like, "Well, babe, we're so powerful together, and I think it's really interesting. I think people are interested in watching relationship and how cool that we could actually model a healthy relationship for once." And I basically came up with this idea that I thought was really cool where I was like, "What if we work as a team with a group, a small group, of dreamers, and it's kind of going to that 'What's your dawn wall?'" They have dreams in different spheres. Maybe one person, it's a woman who's always dreamt of quitting her corporate job that she hates and starting her own healing practice or whatever, but has no idea how to do it. Maybe there's a guy who just always wanted to run a marathon. It's that simple, but he's been overweight since he was a little kid. He didn't know where to start. And I'm the inner game girl, you're the outer game guy, and we could be this amazing team helping people charge for their dreams. And Kevin's like, "Yeah."
And we actually like reversed pitched it to a couple production companies. The company that created Project Runway and Top Chef, or whatever it's called, they loved it. They're like, "Yep. Next step." And Kevin came to me and he's like, "Babe, I know I'm good at helping people project manage, and structure their ideas, but it's not the thing that lights me up the most." And he didn't even have to say anything else. I was like, "Yeah. I know. I know." You know? And it was just yet another ... I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." He didn't have to say ... I knew it. I knew it. I did. I deep down knew it. I said, "Cool. Cool."
And it was kind of the last thing where I saw there was maybe a place for me. How could that death ... I fucking died. I just died. It just felt like there was no place for me. It felt like nobody saw me. It felt like I was screaming into the wind until I was hoarse, and there was just nothing there, and [crosstalk 01:32:30] invisible woman. [crosstalk 01:32:31] Yeah. Which for a star, there is nothing more excruciating. And there I was, I was saying at the start of the call, I was wandering just hoping for this cliff. I'm like, fine, I'll trip over it. I'll go into free fall right now. Show me where. Push me. I don't care. I'll lead, you ... like what configuration, like I'll ... human slingshot. Like what? What does it have to be? And that voice came through. You can't get there from here.
So where am I? I'm at the start. I'm at the start of something. In a way, the writer in me would love to be able to say, "And here's where I am. I just sold them the scripts and blah, blah, blah, and that brings us to present day." But no, because it's not that tidy. I'm not there yet, if I ever get there. All I can tell you is that I'm on the other side of death and there's peace. There's more peace anyway, and there's more stillness, and there's a sweetness that wasn't there and there's a gentleness and there's a patience and there's also a kindness and there's just the next step.
All I know is that I've always been a writer. All I know is that I've always been a story teller. All I know is that there are scripts in me that have been alive and like MMA kicking me, from the inside out for ten years straight. It's time for at least one of them to bust its way out of there. That's all I know is that I'm back in a student role in a way that I haven't been since I was in the undergraduate and it feels really good.
I'm okay for the first time in my life not having that title that I could flaunt like a designer handbag. Because I could never afford the designer handbag, but I could flaunt whatever I was doing because I was always doing something that I was proud enough of to be able to. Now I don't have that, but I have a quiet knowing that I can just ... that Kevin's going to be fine, that I get to sort of pull my genius. Not sever the ties. He still has access to it. Still of course there for him and I love collaborating with him, but that I get the bulk of my brilliance right now.
Sarah: You're in this sweet, feminine surrender after the struggle is over. It's weird, I had this vision of Ophelia being carried down the river. Not swimming, just floating, and literally being carried. We talked when I was in this place. First of all, you've never been juicier or more attractive than just Jackie, without the doing and being. It's beautiful. It gives me ... It's a place that I'm looking to get to again of true surrender, of sort of walking on that moonless night that you describe, like a velvet moonless night.
I remember we were talking and people just really responded to this quote, but I was really ... I couldn't find my joy, and these coven conversations have really brought up that joy is our compass, and tonight we've been obsessed with Joseph Campbell who created "Follow Your Bliss." The second half of "Follow Your Bliss" is that follow your bliss and everything else follows. Everyone who's worried about all the pieces coming together, they come together when you, what you said so beautifully is, when you're like bloodhound on the scent of your joy. For me, I literally started to do that. I think I used literally wrong. I started to do that after you told me that. I was like, drop everything in search of my joy. And the way that you held the ...
Jackie: Where is it? Where is it?
Sarah: What'd you say?
Jackie: It's like if you actually watch a dog on the scent, it's like there's something furtive and frantic about it. I mean, nothing else matters. Nothing else can distract.
Sarah: Nothing. No, but Jackie, nothing else does matter but our joy because only when we're in our joy are we healing, and only are we giving something to anybody else, and our happiness is our gift, and in our joy we have something to give others. And in our joy, we're in our purpose. So maybe our purpose doesn't look like having ten thousand, a hundred thousand followers. Maybe it's being in love. Maybe it's, for right now, showing people how to be empty in the in between stages, even with a life that, to all us, looks incredibly full and like a dream. But you can't be, a star can't be, the girlfriend. She has to be her own star in her own right. I hold faith for you knowing just like with everything, a seed has to be planted and then it has to grow and that takes ... everything comes back to nature teaching us that that takes time and patience. ] Yes.
Jackie: Yeah. I feel different. I feel different. There's been a real turning point, and it came in the moment when Kevin was about to head down to two days full of really exciting meetings with these television producers. He was talking about it, and I realized like, "Oh my gosh. He's talking as if I'm not going to be there." I realized like, "Wow. I'm that far removed. Like not only are we not doing a show featuring Kevin and moi."
It's like that seen in Amelie where she's in the café and she sees something that just breaks her heart and it's this beautiful visual effect where her face falls, and she just ... and the rest of her falls as droplets into just a puddle on the floor. I mean, that's how it felt, and I'd say excuse myself and I went into the bedroom and sat for a moment and then Kevin came in and asked if I wanted to be alone or if I wanted to talk. I'm a star, I always want to talk.
He sat down and I just said, "Yeah. There's really just not a place for me, is there?" And he's just like, "But, no, well, you can come if you want. I thought that you would want to go." And I was like, "No. Yeah, I don't want to go." And I could hear that it sounded petulant, but that's not even what I mean. I really mean that I don't want to go, and I'm not going to sit in those meetings anymore because they're not good for me and because they don't have anything to do with me and because you're not going to be your truest brightest form with me in the room. In that context, in that particular context.
I thought clearly, I have things to work on at home, so he went, and it's funny because I didn't know what I was going to be doing that day, but it just so happens that I ended up joining a boot camp, like a physical beat down boot camp that day, which I never thought that I would do for my body, and I've been getting my butt kicked into shape. I feel like I'm in training. I feel like I'm in training for something that I can't even fathom.
Sarah: Glorious training.
Jackie: Yes, and I'm ready, and I'm like all right, let's do it. So I've been getting healthy. I've been absolutely fully focused on all that brings me joy and all that brings me wholeness. Yeah, it's been a pretty phenomenal journey. [crosstalk 01:41:18] For something so much bigger than you could imagine, which is what happens when we surrender. Yeah, and you know the biggest part of these ... I read about ego deaths, when we lose an identity, that's the death of an ego. You really have to ... and Osho talks about, it's not letting go if you're still clinging on to some know, to some comfort. Really can you walk away from all of it? Can you let go of all of it? And that's the free fall, and that's the cliff. And that's when that last, Kevin going to that minute, I'm like, "I'm done. I'm letting go." And that's when you get somewhere. That's when you receive something totally new.Jackie: Hold on. Can you hear me?
Ann Marie: Okay, can you hear me?
Jackie: Yes. Who is this?
Ann Marie: Who is this? My name is Ann Marie.
Sarah: Hi, Ann Marie.
Ann Marie: Hi. Hi. Thank you. I have loved this call. Thank you so much. I feel like I have a million things to say, or to ask, but one question is ... So you talked about your mentor, and I'm wondering how you got hooked up with your mentor. I feel really fortunate, I have mentors in my life, but they're all on the paths that I've been on. How do you find someone who mentors you on this path?
Jackie: Well that's such a good question. He plucked me, honestly, out of the rushing river. I thought that I was actually seeking another mentor, a coach, and I went to one of this guy's live events and he just was not a guide for me, and ironically, Jake was a participant at the same event, and we maybe met. I don't even know that we had a face to face moment except sort of knew that we were both in the same space and connected on social media, and he sort of looped back a bit later. I was actually initially going to start coaching some of his clients who were a better fit for me than for him, and then we just dropped into really deep conversation.
I wish I could give a case that has actual action steps, but for me it was just being open to being led and being really discerning. I think that's the key word because a lot of people play the role of mentor right now. There are a lot of businesses proliferating around that, and in a way it's brilliant. That's what I was doing and I loved it. I loved my community, and we created a lot of beauty together, but at the same time, I think that at the same time, it can be a slippery slope because when we're seeking, by definition, we don't necessarily know exactly what we're looking for, and we can sometimes end up with people who aren't our truest guides.
I didn't rush into anything. We had a lot of conversations, and the way that I knew that he was a true trusted guide for me is that every single time I spoke with him, something shifted. He was only there to ask the questions that I just couldn't see for myself, and he was always there in the love and money actually didn't enter into the conversation for quite some time. That was an interesting piece for me. There's a belief that he's expressed numerous times and I absolutely agree with him, which is there's some fated contract that he and I have to work together. He's like, "You know, it's not about the money." There were times when I couldn't pay, and he's like, "It's not about the money." But then there were times when I really wanted to pay because I could pay, and he's like, "Cool, but it's still not about the money." He's just so energetically clean with the whole thing, and that was really powerful for me.
Ann Marie: Thank you.
Jackie: I don't know. I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm sorry. I don't know if that was helpful at all, but it was just -
Ann Marie: Absolutely.
Jackie: I guess that's all I can say to that. Okay. Good.
Ann Marie: No, I think that was absolutely helpful and yeah, that's how it has to work. So thank you, for sharing that.
Jackie: Absolutely. I really think it's ... to the right person, there's a story that goes back lifetimes. I truly believe that we are contracted. Like Sarah and I have known each other for many many many eons, and we were just ... it was inevitable that we were going to come back together in this lifetime and create together. I think it should have, ideally, that same feeling with the person that you work with. But by all means, they should be further down the path, whatever branch of the path that it is you're looking to go.
Ann Marie: Lovely. Beautiful. Thank you.
Jackie: I believe it absolutely there should be that remembrance at this point in our relationship. I remember you, this feels familiar, this is easier. Yeah. Okay. Anybody? Thank you, Ann Marie, so much.
Ann Marie: Thank you.
Sarah: We have some more time, so star star if you want to ask a question. We have ten more minutes.
Sarah: It can take a minute to unmute. I've realized.
Jackie: It might be cleaner though if we just let them star star without the echos.
Sarah: Oh no, I'm not down with that echo.
Jackie: Even stars don't like to hear the same thing twice coming out of their mouth.
Sarah: Hearing my own bullshit once is enough.
Sarah: Hi. Who's this?
Rachel: This is Rachel.
Jackie: Hi, Rachel.
Sarah: Hi, Rachel. Hi. Thank you so much for being here.
Rachel: Of course. Thank you so much for this amazing call, seriously I was in tears for half of it.
Sarah: Oh, Mama. So much love to you. Thank you. Me too, so I'm glad to hear I wasn't alone.
Rachel: You know, Jackie, something that you spoke to that's come up for me and that is this idea of supporting our partners financially. That is really present in my life right now, and I'm sort of struggling with this sort of feminine, I'll keep you wild, you keep me safe, type of thing, and not feeling that safety in terms of financial security, but feeling safe in other ways, so I don't know if you can maybe speak to what your experience has been with being now engaged to someone who has had the financial uncertainty.
Jackie: Oh, God. That is so brilliantly juicy, Rachel. Yeah, gold star. I love that because I feel like the beautiful meme has been going around of like, you keep me safe, I'll keep you wild because feel that, don't we? I mean, not all of us. I don't want to assume that that feels deeply profoundly true for all of us, but when it does, it really does. There is a profound truth in there, and there is something to be said. And the reason why we arrive in this archetypes is because they are so systemic and hard wired in biological ways, in sociological ways, socially.
Jackie: Lots of merit there. One of the things that I have really been realizing about myself as well is, I don't know about you, but I was personally raised by, not one, but three really powerful matriarchs who were all jostling for hierarchy in different ways and no real strong men. We were raised by, really in a sense, some of the original products of the feminist movement, so a lot of us were raised by mothers who were trying to undo all of the garbage that they'd grown up with of, "Oh you're helpless. Keep quiet. Get back in the kitchen." That kind of bullshit, right?
Jackie: But on the flip side of that is, "You don't need a man. You don't need ..." and a real detachment and if anything for me personally, it was like a type of scorn for the role of the man, and that I don't think I realized was playing out.
What I started to see was is that, especially in light of all this, and especially in the really awkward fumbling ... I mean guys, we've been ... I feel like the closest thing that I can liken it to is Kevin and I have talked about taking dancing lessons for our wedding, and I'm pretty sure that's only dance that could possibly be more awkward than the first time that we go to one of these lessons, is the dance we decide to do. I'm like, "Oh. Okay, so you're going to provide now? Should I put this on my PayPal account? Oh. Okay, well ..."
I mean, it was really strange and uncomfortable because I felt more empowered on the surface by maintaining my accounts, by maintaining my own sense of security, and I only just recently realized that I was clinging to a bank account that, for me, for a very long time had only reflected debt and overdrafts and feelings of lack and scarcity, and I was clinging to it even though Kevin had opened his bank account to me and was sharing everything he had with me because I somehow thought it was keeping me in control, and keeping me on a level equal footing. The word surrender keeps coming up and keeps coming up, and what kind of came through, because I do believe that we attract our situations and that they do provide areas for grace.
It's not any kind of blame thing, but I do think if there's something interesting to look at, maybe the very subtle ways that you're potentially contributing to the dynamic there.
Jackie: Right? Because he's contributing to the dynamic based out of his own conditioning and his stories and his patterns. For you, you're probably used to that to some extent at this point, and so it'd actually probably be a little uncomfortable for that to shift and for him to start stepping into his power of being able to keep you safe in all the ways, financial included.
Rachel: Yeah, you know, it's been interesting because it's kind of actually for me, at least right, flipped, so I'm actually step in and take on the role of the bread winner, I guess, and I think there's something to be said about what you mentioned with the discomfort. The fact that he's having money issues has become a mirror for my own shit to come up, right?
Rachel: But I guess, my question ... and you addressed it perfectly ... and my issue is that it is that opposite effect happening where I'm having to step in and sort of take up the lead, I guess you could say, in financial matters. I know that's not going to be an all the time thing, but it is a new arena to navigate, right?
Jackie: Absolutely. And let me ask you this. Do you want your man to be the primary bread winner? Is that something that you desire in your most honest heart of hearts?
Rachel: Really good question. I don't think so. I see it as being a partnership, absolutely, in the sense that sometimes I will be the bread winner, sometimes he will have to be, and that we'll both be willing to step up and do that for the other person.
Jackie: Okay, so it's interesting ... Yeah, if I can just interject really quickly.
Jackie: What's interesting to me there is that what you described as partnership, to someone else might have then been more deeply described as, so we're both continually sharing in equal, or almost equal parts, that there's a constant influx. What's interesting is that the definition that you just provided of an equal partnership is sometimes he's the primary bread winner, sometimes I am. It seems to me, not trying to psychoanalyze, in any kind of way, but just in terms of reflecting and mirroring back. I think that there's something interesting there to look at, that somewhere there is this story of ... but this is what an equal partnership looks like, where it's almost like the two of you sharing, taking turns in the feast and famine, as opposed to you both being in a place of feast, both being in a place of abundance, both being in a place of regular and constant contribution.
Rachel: Yeah, that's a really good point. Thank you for that clarity because I think it's also having to do with all of this archetypal bullshit that we inherit of men being the supporters and being the sort of safeguard for our wildness, in a way, and being willing to sort of take on the more masculine role as a woman, and embrace that for however long that is in that partnership is definitely still a part of embracing your divine feminine power.
Jackie: Yes, and being okay with the surrender to the man. That has been the single hardest hurdle I've had to overcome, and it keeps coming up. It's the dog with a dozen heads, and a different head keeps kind of baring its fangs at me as we move through the process. It kind of like, oh Jesus, okay, so and physical intimacy, great, financially, cool.
Because the thing is, there's ... he opened him up to vulnerability in my surrender, but I couldn't see that. All I could see was, oh, I'm in a vulnerable position and this doesn't feel safe, and so I put up my walls, he puts up his walls because we think that there's an imbalance of power. I feel like our generation has really been taught to navigate this as a power game or struggle, so we see it that way.
Everything's kind of like a maneuvering, and everything's strategic, and well, if I have sex too soon, is that giving up my power? If I ... Right? Everything's been itemized with a certain number of power points, that we're supposed to play in a certain way, and it's become such a head trip. All I can speak to is just my own journey, which is that I feel like with every level of surrender and vulnerability I show to Kevin, he goes like double down on it.
Rachel: Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that.
Jackie: Oh, I'm so glad I had a chance to. It's such a beautiful, and I think vital, question. Thank you for asking it. I almost feel like, I told Sarah earlier, I feel like there's a question that needs to be asked and answered, or at least talked about on this call, and I think that might be it.
Sarah: I'm going to buzz kill like the mom breaking up the party down in the basement.
Jackie: Do it. Turn the lights on. Turn the music off.
Sarah: Also, Rachel, careful about those memes on the internet. Just remember, if something doesn't resonate in your bones, it's not for you. That one's always made me be like, "I don't know about this one." But, I [crosstalk 02:01:45] couple things ... I've never shared it. There's a couple things, Jackie, I just wanted to thank you because we didn't get into people who that are sort of shoved in the spiritual spotlight really taking a stand in their humanness and their vulnerability and saying ... even the word humanness, it sounds like human [inaudible 02:02:05], and to not have it all together and just show up is really vulnerable and really fucking gorgeous, and I want to thank you for that. Really being in the gladiator ring without your armor and saying, "Here I am," without all the trophies and the glitter and stuff, and that's beautiful. You're definitely a star to us, and you didn't get away with answering how is the feminine healing the world. You didn't quite skip that.
Jackie: Son of a ... okay. You even gave me a heads up on this way, so I should've just spent the rest of the afternoon contemplating something good. Honestly ... the echo's coming back.
Sarah: I'm going to mute everyone.
Jackie: I guess I don't have to answer after all.
Sarah: Stop it. Hold on. Okay, unmute yourself, Jackie, and then answer the question and then I'll let everyone go.
Jackie: Am I back?
Sarah: Yes, you are.
Jackie: Okay, so just to close things up with a little bite of this profound brilliance. I think ... God, it's so much pressure, and I think the challenge is that we do put so much pressure on ourselves to save the world. Yet another, I think, really important sound bite that I got from Jake was, in our very first conversation was, "So what is it that you're here to do?" And I didn't know what to say, and I felt really uncomfortable, but I really respected him, and I wanted to prove myself and show that I'm serious and that I have the heart of a lioness. I said that only thing that I knew how to say, which immediately again I got sick of myself for hearing it, but I said, "Well I'm here to save the world." And he just save, really lovingly, "The world doesn't need you to save it."
It was an immediate recalibration, my plan was like fucked. Okay, new plan, new plan, new plan. I'm like, that didn't impress him, damn it. Okay. Think of it again. It took some of the pressure off. He's like, "But the world does need you to be you. The world needs you, but it doesn't need you to save it." There's something there that I've been kind of massaging for, honestly probably a calendar year now, and I can't say that I'm there. To me, one of the biggest lessons that I've had to learn because I'm a freaking know-it-all, and have been from the time I could form words as a toddler. My least favorite phrase of all time was, I don't know, but I don't know what we need to do to save the world, but maybe it's that. Maybe it's more of saying I don't know, and then just being open to being led and being guided and being ourselves as raw human authentic ugly beauty that we can muster. I think that's just it, and I wish it was more profound, and I wish it was more articulate, and I wish it was a million more things, but I think that's all that I got on that because it's still a work in progress for me.
I think it's truly, it's not ... we are. We are everything that we need to be. We don't need to become something better. We don't need to have a flashier catch phrase to throw at people at cocktail parties. We just need to be having conversations like this, that are honest and that are real and that are unadulterated by what we think we're supposed to be.
Sarah: Wow. That's beautiful, and I will throw in a little know-it-all quote... No, I really found last night I heard this, and it's perfect. He said, "We are not here to save the world. We are here to save ourselves, and in doing so, we save the world."
Jackie: Boom. Mic dropped. Joseph Campbell.
Sarah: And that for me took the weight and pressure off me. It's like, continue to save myself and in doing so, I save the world. Because that takes expansion right, like the idea of ... because what constricts and what expands and the pressure of the western woman will save the world. Holy shit. Okay, so I'm going to have to get up earlier in the morning..
Jackie: I don't know about you, but I think you don't have to do a damn thing but take care of yourself and save yourself again and again and again, and I blossomed. I blossomed hearing that. Thank you so much. I think that was a killer way to close this out.
Sarah: Right. Well you're one of my beloveds. And thanks to everyone on this call, and I'm so grateful for this work. Calling it work seems silly, but thank you.
Jackie: I love you, and I love every being that I got to share this with. It's been such an absolute honor. I'm humbled in your collective presence. Thank you.